Alternator failure related to mild hybrid system?

[barron]

Interesting thread.

I'm in the market for a new family car (baby due in July) and so far narrowed it down to a Audi RS6 and BMW M3 Touring.

The feedback I've had so far from speaking with owners is "the Mild Hybrid System will fail".

So far whenever I've spoken to dealers about the issue, they've been very dismissive (even when I've explain my worry about it failing with my family in the car).

I got the below from one dealership:

"it is such a small proportion of these cars which this does happen to hence why there is no recall. Its difficult when you are looking in forums full of people discussing something that goes wrong it seems like a larger proportion.

If you are looking at an M3 maybe RS4 would be up your street?"

On the back of these type of comments, the go to answer is "it's not really an issue but don't worry you have a 7 year warranty on it" without actually acknowledging the dangerous nature of the potential failure.

It's almost impossible to buy one of these cars knowing that you're driving a vehicle that could potentially put you in a dangerous situation at any time (with no prior warning).

[huw8000]

Maybe it is true that the forums are a bit of an echo chamber re the number of instances but I'd agree with you that the potential threat/ danger is unarguable.

I spoke to and independent Audi specialist who checked Audi parts - apparently the MHEV system alternator/ starter motor is on back order with no stock in the UK and none in the main European warehouse. Makes me think the problem might be a bit more widespread than Audi would have us think.  

[RSW]

Barron - that’s largely how I came across this thread.

I had reserved an RS6 C8 to replace my RS4. The evening before I was due to go in and complete the paper work I was looking at recalls for the model and started seeing threads in the US about this MHEV 48/12 v related issue and the class action lawsuit.
 

I came across this thread and asked Mark2 about his experience and whether Audi were fixing it or replacing like for like. 

Mark2 was kind enough to keep sharing his journey with Audi on this issue and as you can see it’s not been an easy one, with the most common theme being one of no clear and decisive responses to clear questions from the likes of Mark2 and Cally. 

Agree on the echo chamber point, I was mindful of that so did pay for independent advice from two working Audi technicians and while they were careful in what they said they both indicated they had seen quite a few examples on a number of different models with this system including the RS6 C8. They both thought it was a bigger issue than was being acknowledged by Audi UK albeit the 7year warranty extension speaks for itself. 

Recently after seeing many more examples of this on other threads and the unwillingness of Audi to act I cancelled my order as I couldn’t have driven my kids on any of the “smart motorways” that surround where we live with the spectre of this issue in the back of my mind. Mindful failures happen, punctures, blow outs etc but this issue and they way it unfolds in terms of car shut down once the 12v battery is depleted is just too potentially dangerous especially with how it affects simple things like hazards and central locking etc. I did ask the main dealer to provide a clarification on the fault, any plans for root cause fix / recall but they were dismissive and played it down. 

For what it’s worth a lot of vehicles now have this mild hybrid set up to help meet emissions regs. No idea if it’s failing in similar ways on equivalent BMWs, Mercedes, Porsches etc or just a particularly bad implementation in the Audi. On my searches I have read a few tech reviews on the failure that point to it being a coolant leak inside system as well as certain key circuit board components getting cooked - not sure if that’s linked to poor heat sink design or inadequate cooling, or the coolant leak leading to component failure through heat etc.  

I have also looked at the M3 touring and couldn’t see the same issue in my searches but I am very mindful that the G81 hasn’t been on the road as long as the C8. As much as I love the RS4 and wanted the C8 the M3 touring G81 is likely the path I’ll take. 

[Mark2]

I do sympathise with the dilemma. I have a similar one of whether to continue C8 ownership or try and get Audi to buy it back. My conclusion is that I now know enough to manage the next failure. The early unrelated warning signs like the Sport Diff fault light are indicative that you need to switch off heated seats and anything not essential. Then you can drive for about an hour to safety. Maybe put the 12v battery which is in the O/S rear side compartment of the boot, on charge. This could allow you to drive to an Audi dealer before catastrophic failure.

Audi have been very keen to compensate me so I am going to try for a 15 year Alternator parts, labour, recovery charges and courtesy car to cover future failures. Not ideal but the car is otherwise excellent but wish I had not traded my old RS6 in which had 235,000 miles on it.

[Mark2]

I have now received a reply from Audi as expected the last sentence about customer safety however does not ring true-

Thank you for your email. 

As advised, we have passed on your thoughts and suggestions to our design team regarding the alert messages on the dashboard. Often changes will be made off the back of customer comments and feedback. We cannot comment on when this change will come into effect as it will be reviewed at many levels but will be relayed back.

We do not influence product development or suggestions, the best we can do is feed this back, which we have done.

Any escalations to Audi Germany or the PA of the CEO's will be redirected back to the UK team, i.e the Executive Office as your vehicle is UK-registered and, therefore will fall under our jurisdiction.

I can assure you not being able to provide an agreed timescale for this change does not translate to Audi not taking passenger safety seriously.

I hope this clarifies our position on the matter.

 

[RSW]

Think I would be taking a similar view to you Mark2 if I was in one already particularly given the cars capabilities and aesthetics and the understanding you now have of the early signs of the issue and what to do. Feel for those out there who won’t. 

Before I decided to cancel I did look at getting an in car OBD scanner to surface a status on the 12v battery via a mobile app, through to having a 12v back up unit.  

What swung it for me in the end in part was the disappointing (sadly not unsurprising) response from Audi to very considered and sensible asks from folks like yourself, Cally and others on similar threads.

It was also the thought that if it did happen the repair if like for like wouldn’t signal the end of it. I think that’s what made me decide against in the end. 

Still gutted every time I see one - fine looking car, impressive capabilities! 

I guess key at this point is to keep the pressure up on Audi - they owe it existing and future customers to step up and sort this. Having seen their responses to you (genuinely thanks for sharing) and others, I now don’t believe they will take the initiative and tackle this until it gets broadcast air time with a  consumer rights protection group. My only hope is that it isn’t a tragic incident that crystallises such coverage and a material response. 

Will let you know what comes of the Which dialogue. 

Edited April 4 by RSW
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[MikeyW]

I’m new to the forum as, guess what, was left stranded on the A5 on Thursday with the dreaded alternator fault. I’ve a C8 RS6 which I’ve had for 2 years following my rejection of my previous RS6 C8 for, wait for it…..the same fault.

Dealership are super supportive and can’t believe I’ve had this occur twice, but reading this thread it’s seems significantly more common than I thought. 
Currently I’m trying to get a loan car that actually serves my purpose as the A1 from Enterprise (Audi Assist) can’t carry kit for my job or fit my dogs in, has a faulty sos function and faulty Bluetooth and sat nav. It’s not ideal. 
 

I am not really sure how I’ll take this forward - when the electrical warning hit the dash I knew exactly what was going to happen so was lucky to be able to get off the M6 toll and to a place of relative safety. I didn’t know the sport diff failure was the early warning so that’s super helpful. 
 

The last time this occurred we ended stranded at the top of a slip road off the m25 on a blind bend…..and kept waiting for recovery for 3 hours too. So this time it was better and I guess knowing the fault I knew I had to find a safer place for the car to die in. 
 

concerned that the replacement parts are not a different part - staggered it’s not a recall so will be raising this as a safety matter with as many differing channels as I’m able. Last time it was the Audi executive office who handled the issue as I wrote to Andrew Doyle. The car was off the road for over 2 months then due to a parts shortage. 

[RSW]

Hello Mikey W, sorry to hear that you’ve endured this fault multiple times, but glad you have managed to get to safety on each occasion.  Sounds like Mark2 in so far as you now know what to do when the early warning signs arise, seems insane that this is something that has to be back of mind on what in many respects is meant to be one of their flagship vehicles. 

Having watched a Panorama programme on our Smart Motorways yesterday  (not Smart just deadly it seems!) it continues to alarm me that this is a dangerous fault when coupled with the above. Audi need to be doing more as you will have seen discussed in above posts.

i haven’t seen anything on other related forum threads yet that indicates  the replacement repair is a root cause fix, so likely it is simply a like for like replacement. 

Sounds to me like you should be pushing for a much more suitable vehicle and via Audi UK and asking them to sort that immediately. Ultimately Audi UK know this is an issue and should if pursued react more empathetically to assist you with a replacement vehicle etc. I believe Mark2 has had some success with Audi UK in getting a better response support wise while the car is off the road being repaired etc 

Good luck 
 

 

[Mark2]

Sorry to hear this yet again but not surprising. Starter / generators are now on back order so that shows Audi have a world wide problem and do not have the spares, so looks like you could be off the road for a few months. In my case I made enough fuss , although my car was out of warranty, to get Audi to pay the roadside recovery charges and provide a courtesy car until the car was repaired. My current situation is that although Audi acknowledge this failure puts driver and passengers into a dangerous situation they will not commit to a recall or software upgrade. In their view these cars are ‘old’ and the tech dept is working on stuff for 5-10 years time not messing about with old stuff so we are on our own. I am still negotiating compensation but they will not warranty this part for parts, labour, recovery and courtesy car for 10 years as a special deal. They may be able to offer extended warranty free. So I am thinking I will order a spare alternator and have it sitting in my garage, take the extended warranty and get breakdown cover so then I can be sure of getting assistance and repair.

[MikeyW]

Hi mark thanks for the reply. Audi uk will know me I’m sure as I had another known issue on the first rs6 3 days after picking it up which was the fuel tank level float sticking and creating the idea you had half a tank of fuel, so the then alternator fault led to some tense conversations. Current rs6 has Audi warranty and breakdown so I need to ponder about my expectations from them here. I had been looking to change to a new performance version (coz you need more power when you have 600ps don’t you ?!!!) so maybe there’s something I can pursue there. But I’m keen to know are the new ones sorted for this issue and are the parts they now ship (or not) also fixed.  It’s a major safety issue so if I don’t get properly looked after starting tomorrow it’s going to get escalated very quickly. I’ll keep you posted. How old is yours ?

[Mark2]

I do not think the part is the problem, it is the design.in my opinion this Starter/genertor does two things. It kick starts the engine after being static in traffic and then charges the batteries. I think if yiu spend a lot of time in stop start then this will wear out more quickly.If it was a quality issue Audi would be doing a recall. As it is they are burying their heads in the sand and trying to tough it out.

[Mark2]

Not once have they responded to me to tell me they are aware of the problem and are working to sort it out and this is what they are doing and all owners should expect a fix by a certain date, as you would expect. Instead very sorry what compensation can we pay you to go away.

[RSW]

On all of the other related threads I have seen, including some of the independent technical analysis of the fault there has been no indication that the component when replaced is materially different, I think the part number changed slightly but analysis of that implied it was fundamentally the same system part(s). I am inclined to agree with Mark2, whether its something about the design and implementation around the system and the load upon it that causes it to eventually fail and or a design flaw within the component that with constant loading results at some point in a failure of its ability to charge the 12v battery, it simply doesn't look like Audi intend to proactively identify the true root cause(s) and implement a fix upon which a recall is initiated.

It seems they have taken the path (think this was discussed further back in the thread) of letting the customers and dealerships deal with the issue at point of failure and simply replace the part under an extended warranty scheme. No doubt they will have some level of contractual coverage with the component supplier themselves. 

It's plausible as they focus more on their ev range that they don't want to put time and money on a system and component set that may be considered part of vehicle ranges they will ultimately sunset (speculation only, but plausible). Of course the issue with that is that ultimately it is the consumer that suffers the consequences. They may be able to currently defend their position by pointing to an extended warranty and willingness to repair, but if someone gets hurt or worse as a consequence of being put in harms way by this failure then I suspect things will change very quickly. Will be interesting to see how the class action in the US unfolds and what follows that.

MikeyW, regarding the question of whether they fix the issue when replacing the component, the burden of evidence kicking around would imply that they don't. Seems they replace it like for like, inadvertently resetting the countdown for when it will re-occur and there are some theories out their on how to extend that time such as disabling the stop-start each journey via engine sport modes etc. Earlier this year I asked for confirmation as to whether they had identified the root cause and identified an appropriate fix (as opposed to like for replacement) to this specific failure in writing as a condition of completing a purchase of a C8 with one of the largest Audi dealerships in the UK and they wouldn't do it as they said Audi UK didn't recognise it as an issue requiring recall or otherwise. Predictably I was fobbed off with the usual " it is rare and we haven't seen many'. Sadly that it is why I cancelled mine.  If interested in the new performance version (a beauty!), if it were me, as a condition of sale I would ask the dealer to confirm in writing via Audi UK that they have changed the implementation and or component in a way that fixes the root cause of the failure. I don't think they will do that, but it is worth a go.

[MikeyW]

I’m told the part should be in the uk this week, or early next, which is a whole lot faster than the first time this occurred. I asked about the issue and whether the replacement part was the same had been modified, but, not unexpectedly, the dealer didn’t know but could tell me the part number had changed. But I’m sure I read earlier on the thread that there could be other reasons for this. So the positive is there’s light in terms of getting my car back on the road.  They also confirmed the 7 year warranty extension (think they referred to this as a goodwill extension but I maybe mistaken there). Of course having bought a warranty extension that I don’t need that’s an interesting situation. I’m still in a mobex car that isn’t appropriate for my needs with faults on !, but I should be getting a q5 later today so progress there providing my dogs and dog cage system fits in it.  Next step is to renew my acquaintance with Mr Doyle to ask questions about the fault and the fix and why I was told when I effectively rejected the last car and replaced with the same model I’m in precisely the same situation which I was so keen to avoid. Put simply, my last one wasn’t a Friday afternoon RS6 with me as the unlucky owner, they all are. It’s not acceptable on such a premium vehicle. 

[Mark2]

I have bitten the bullet and ordered a spare starter/generator for £1100 which is going to sit on my shelf so at least when it goes again there is no delay.

i just need to agree with Audi that they reimburse me when I need to have it fitted under the warranty extn.

[MikeyW]

22 hours ago, Mark2 said:

I have bitten the bullet and ordered a spare starter/generator for £1100 which is going to sit on my shelf so at least when it goes again there is no delay.

i just need to agree with Audi that they reimburse me when I need to have it fitted under the warranty extn.

Do you think they will cover the costs ? Have they offered you anything and do you have yours back now ? One of the reasons I rejected the last rs6 was this fault and that my wife wouldn’t drive it - too scared of this occurring and I can’t say I can blame her. As we know, it happens quite fast and leaves the car utterly dead. I was lucky this time as I got to a lay-by but if I’d had my dogs with me it becomes very challenging or on a smart motorway……last time it was the top of an m25 exit slip on a blind bend. It really wasn’t nice at all.  And what really grates is I went from a car I had from new into one that wasn’t and was older that the one I was rejecting only to find I have the same issue….

[Mark2]

I am trying to negotiate a 10 year Extended warranty. Whe n it goes again I get my spare fitted immediately and the warranty replacement becomes my spare, that way I always have in stock the latest model. Now I know what to look out for my wife and I can manage any future problems as otherwise it is a great car.

[MikeyW]

3 hours ago, Mark2 said:

I am trying to negotiate a 10 year Extended warranty. Whe n it goes again I get my spare fitted immediately and the warranty replacement becomes my spare, that way I always have in stock the latest model. Now I know what to look out for my wife and I can manage any future problems as otherwise it is a great car.

I love the car too - and was going to change it for a performance most likely too. I like your approach so may look for something similar. Are you looking for 10 years on the whole car or just that part ? 

[Steph1234]

On 11/28/2023 at 2:08 PM, Poweller said:

Hi,

Audi have confirmed this morning that it will be fully covered under warranty- they are extending the warranty period to 7 years, same as the USA. Sounds like there are parts availability issues though..Got there in the end, thanks for your help. 

Hi, 

my alternator has failed (4/5months out of warranty and only on 14k miles so they won’t pay out). Did Audi confirm your alternator was covered for 7years or the new one they’ve fitted? I’m clutching at straws as also need a new battery too as the alternator wrecked mine and they want 2k just for the alternator. Thanks in advance for any help or advice. 

[Steph1234]

On 2/2/2024 at 6:06 PM, ASHAH12 said:

Hi Liza, I would recommend you use download the US bulletin on this known issue. It's been accepted by UK Audi so present that and do not back down until they replace the Alternator.

Hello, I have the same issue. 
How can I access the US bulletin on this? Many thanks for your help

[MikeyW]

2 hours ago, Steph1234 said:

Hi, 

my alternator has failed (4/5months out of warranty and only on 14k miles so they won’t pay out). Did Audi confirm your alternator was covered for 7years or the new one they’ve fitted? I’m clutching at straws as also need a new battery too as the alternator wrecked mine and they want 2k just for the alternator. Thanks in advance for any help or advice. 

The dealer told me that the faulty part is covered by a 7 year warranty which is also what others here have been told. I’ve written to the MD of Audi Uk to get clarification on what this really means, their position on whether the issue has been fixed, how subsequent failures may be dealt with, broader car warranty extension at their cost and whether newer vehicles have the same issue. I’ve not had a reply yet. I’ve said I won’t collect my car until I do - I’m in an Audi mobex loan car via enterprise so it’s costing Audi every day I have it. 
 

my own rs6 is out of the 3 years warranty but I have an extended warranty I took out, but I’m told this repair is being done under this special extended warranty for the 48v system alternator so I’d push back hard and say other owners are not being charged as this is a known issue and regardless of the age or mileage is being honoured as an Audi issue. 
 

my dealer has been superb and the car was fixed in just over a week from failure - but I’m not having it back till I hear from Audi Uk…..assume you are Uk based ?? 

[fiddyk23]

4 hours ago, Steph1234 said:

Hello, I have the same issue. 
How can I access the US bulletin on this? Many thanks for your help

Hi @Steph1234, if you go to the first page of this topic you’ll see I posted it in my first/second post

[Mark2]

Hi Steph,

you should get confirmation from Audi UK about the warranty extn if not I could get your dealer to contact mine . Audi uk paid for my vehicle recovery , alternator and loan car my battery was ok once it was put on charge. 

[Cally]

@Steph1234 my dealership initially refused to cover my vehicle under the extended warranty too - out of warranty at 68,000 miles . If you haven't already, you need to raise a case with Audi UK and pass the number to your dealership and ask them to make an application for support. Mentioning the Consumer Rights Act 2015 was also a game changer. I am having ongoing issues with my vehicle as a result of the failure, but can confirm with pressure applied the initial repair cost was covered in full. It took a month, but I was eventually provided with a hire car which I used for a month while I awaited the repair of my vehicle. Wishing you the best of luck for a rightful resolution.

[MikeyW]

On 5/1/2024 at 7:47 PM, Steph1234 said:

Hi, 

my alternator has failed (4/5months out of warranty and only on 14k miles so they won’t pay out). Did Audi confirm your alternator was covered for 7years or the new one they’ve fitted? I’m clutching at straws as also need a new battery too as the alternator wrecked mine and they want 2k just for the alternator. Thanks in advance for any help or advice. 

My Audi is out of the initial warranty but despite having extended warranty I was assured the repairs were done entirely under the extended 7 year part specific warranty for the alternator…..including the loan car