Help please. Won't crank A4 B8 Quattro Avante 6Sp UK RHD '09

[DJGLW]

Help please. New member, first post.

A4 B8 Quattro Avante 2.0 TDI 6Sp manual 170HP engine UK RHD '09 won't turn over.

Battery was on last legs. Whilst the dash lit up, it wouldn't turn over when I pressed the key in. So had a new battery fitted today but was told as I don't have stop/start it didn't need to be coded. Is that correct?

I have tried another ignition switch after it suddenly started on the 10th push on the key on the original one and it was giving the ignition switch warning.

Checked all the fuses on the drivers (RHS) of the dash as well as the fuses in front of the windscreen in the engine dept. 

Tried swapping the 4 X 404 relays about in pairs. Tested all seven relays in the pic attached and they all click when +12v is applied though I haven't measured the resistance between the relay points.

The steering lock solenoid releases.

Am confident the starter and main solenoid are not the issue but would like to know which pin on which underbonnet relay would activate the starter solenoid so I can test it before deciding whether on not to take the starter off the car?

I thought there was a switch on the clutch pedal but have also read it's built into the clutch master cylinder. Can anyone please clarify?

I would like to test the solenoid before removing the starter which looks like it requires major surgery to get it out. Do Audi start with the starter then build the rest of the car around it? I can't see any way of giving the starter a good dunt in case the brushes are sticking.

I've also read that there is a fuse or relay on the +ve lead where it connects to the battery in the boot? Is it a fuse or a relay? I assume I can safely bypass it by bridging it?

Am I missing anything? Any suggestions?

Am in desperate need for this to be running by tomorrow night. Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by DJGLW

[Stevey Y]

1 hour ago, DJGLW said:

Help please. New member, first post.

A4 B8 Quattro Avante 2.0 TDI 6Sp manual 170HP engine UK RHD '09 won't turn over.

Battery was on last legs. Whilst the dash lit up, it wouldn't turn over when I pressed the key in. So had a new battery fitted today but was told as I don't have stop/start it didn't need to be coded. Is that correct?

I have tried another ignition switch after it suddenly started on the 10th push on the key on the original one and it was giving the ignition switch warning.

Checked all the fuses on the drivers (RHS) of the dash as well as the fuses in front of the windscreen in the engine dept. 

Tried swapping the 4 X 404 relays about in pairs. Tested all seven relays in the pic attached and they all click when +12v is applied though I haven't measured the resistance between the relay points.

The steering lock solenoid releases.

Am confident the starter and main solenoid are not the issue but would like to know which pin on which underbonnet relay would activate the starter solenoid so I can test it before deciding whether on not to take the starter off the car?

I thought there was a switch on the clutch pedal but have also read it's built into the clutch master cylinder. Can anyone please clarify?

I would like to test the solenoid before removing the starter which looks like it requires major surgery to get it out. Do Audi start with the starter then build the rest of the car around it? I can't see any way of giving the starter a good dunt in case the brushes are sticking.

I've also read that there is a fuse or relay on the +ve lead where it connects to the battery in the boot? Is it a fuse or a relay? I assume I can safely bypass it by bridging it?

Am I missing anything? Any suggestions?

Am in desperate need for this to be running by tomorrow night. Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

 

 

Hi just because it has not got stop start it will need to be coded as the stop start has nothing to do with this, but the battery energy monitor does and thats what controls the charging from the alternator, with regard to the clutch position sensor I am not sure what type you have if its on the pedal its clearly visible and will be sitting just above the pedal so when you press the clutch down you will see the little pin in the unit start to drop down, if the sensor is on the clutch master cylinder you have to change the whole unit, easiest thing to do is get the vehicle scanned for faults as I am sure that will tell you straight away as at the moment it could be a starter, crank sensor, clutch switch, sorry I can't be of more help.

Steve.

[DJGLW]

Thanks Steve.

Would the failure to code prevent it turning over? My understanding was it would affect the charging but not prevent it cranking?

I'm an idiot and completely forgot to include the DTCs my scan threw up. Do these throw any more light on matters?

OBD-IIOBD-II
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
P2015 [0x2015]
Intake manifold air control actuator position sensor/switch, bank 1 - range/performance problem
Status: Pending
============================
19. CAN Gateway19. CAN Gateway
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
1771 [0x06EB]
Headlight range control unit-J431
Status: Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request
============================
09. Onboard supply control unit
No DTC found.
============================
03. ABS control unit
No DTC found.
============================
01. Engine control unit01. Engine control unit
DTCs: 2
----------------------------
4377 [0x001119]
U101000: Electrical Parking Brake Control Module, Read out DTC
Status bits: 1 
Priority: 6 
Frequency: 1 
Unlearning index: 255 
Odometer: 332486 km 
Date, time: 2008.05.27 01:25:21
Engine RPM: 0 rpm
Calculated engine load value: 0.00 %
Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
Engine coolant temperature: 7 ℃
Engine oil temperature: 9 ℃
Distance traveled with MIL on: 99 kPa
Klemme 30 voltage: 11
Paramteric values:  20 96 28 13 3B 00 00 11 88 00 00 13 3A 0B 00 10 5E 02 55 10 60 00 11 A6 08 98 12 FB 0B 48
Status: Test failed, Test failed (current drive cycle), Pending, Test failed since last DTC clear
----------------------------
7859 [0x001EB3]
P201500: Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit, Range/Performance
Status bits: 1 
Priority: 2 
Frequency: 1 
Unlearning index: 255 
Odometer: 332486 km 
Date, time: 2008.05.27 01:25:21
Engine RPM: 0 rpm
Calculated engine load value: 0.00 %
Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
Engine coolant temperature: 7 ℃
Engine oil temperature: 10 ℃
Distance traveled with MIL on: 99 kPa
Klemme 30 voltage: 11
Paramteric values:  20 96 28 13 3B 00 00 11 88 00 00 10 2A 00 00 11 DF 03 C5 11 DE 01 5A 11 DD 07 45 12 15
Status: Test failed, Test failed (current drive cycle), Pending, Test failed since last DTC clear
============================
05. Authorization system for access and starting the engine
No DTC found.
============================
08. Heater and climate
No DTC found.
============================
0D. Slide Door Left (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.
============================
15. SRS
No DTC found.
============================
16. Steering column
No DTC found.
============================
17. Dashboard17. Dashboard
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
1771 [0x06EB]
Headlight range control unit-J431
Status: Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request
============================
42. Driver door electronic equipment
No DTC found.
============================
46. Central comfort systems module (VW TP2.0)46. Central comfort systems module (VW TP2.0)
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
0473 [0x01D9]
Electromechanical parking brake control unit-J540; Electric parking / handbrake control unit-J540
Status: Pending fault present, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request
============================
47. Acoustic system
No DTC found.
============================
52. Front passenger door electronics
No DTC found.
============================
53. Parking brake53. Parking brake
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
3182 [0x0C6E]
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request
============================
56. Head unit (MMI) (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.
============================
62. Rear left door electoronics (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.
============================
72. Rear right door electronics (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.
============================
77. Telephone
No DTC found.
============================
78. Slide Door Right (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.

[Stevey Y]

20 hours ago, DJGLW said:

Thanks Steve.

Would the failure to code prevent it turning over? My understanding was it would affect the charging but not prevent it cranking?

I'm an idiot and completely forgot to include the DTCs my scan threw up. Do these throw any more light on matters?

OBD-IIOBD-II
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
P2015 [0x2015]
Intake manifold air control actuator position sensor/switch, bank 1 - range/performance problem
Status: Pending
============================
19. CAN Gateway19. CAN Gateway
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
1771 [0x06EB]
Headlight range control unit-J431
Status: Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request
============================
09. Onboard supply control unit
No DTC found.
============================
03. ABS control unit
No DTC found.
============================
01. Engine control unit01. Engine control unit
DTCs: 2
----------------------------
4377 [0x001119]
U101000: Electrical Parking Brake Control Module, Read out DTC
Status bits: 1 
Priority: 6 
Frequency: 1 
Unlearning index: 255 
Odometer: 332486 km 
Date, time: 2008.05.27 01:25:21
Engine RPM: 0 rpm
Calculated engine load value: 0.00 %
Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
Engine coolant temperature: 7 ℃
Engine oil temperature: 9 ℃
Distance traveled with MIL on: 99 kPa
Klemme 30 voltage: 11
Paramteric values:  20 96 28 13 3B 00 00 11 88 00 00 13 3A 0B 00 10 5E 02 55 10 60 00 11 A6 08 98 12 FB 0B 48
Status: Test failed, Test failed (current drive cycle), Pending, Test failed since last DTC clear
----------------------------
7859 [0x001EB3]
P201500: Intake Manifold Runner Position Sensor/Switch Circuit, Range/Performance
Status bits: 1 
Priority: 2 
Frequency: 1 
Unlearning index: 255 
Odometer: 332486 km 
Date, time: 2008.05.27 01:25:21
Engine RPM: 0 rpm
Calculated engine load value: 0.00 %
Vehicle speed: 0 km/h
Engine coolant temperature: 7 ℃
Engine oil temperature: 10 ℃
Distance traveled with MIL on: 99 kPa
Klemme 30 voltage: 11
Paramteric values:  20 96 28 13 3B 00 00 11 88 00 00 10 2A 00 00 11 DF 03 C5 11 DE 01 5A 11 DD 07 45 12 15
Status: Test failed, Test failed (current drive cycle), Pending, Test failed since last DTC clear
============================
05. Authorization system for access and starting the engine
No DTC found.
============================
08. Heater and climate
No DTC found.
============================
0D. Slide Door Left (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.
============================
15. SRS
No DTC found.
============================
16. Steering column
No DTC found.
============================
17. Dashboard17. Dashboard
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
1771 [0x06EB]
Headlight range control unit-J431
Status: Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request
============================
42. Driver door electronic equipment
No DTC found.
============================
46. Central comfort systems module (VW TP2.0)46. Central comfort systems module (VW TP2.0)
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
0473 [0x01D9]
Electromechanical parking brake control unit-J540; Electric parking / handbrake control unit-J540
Status: Pending fault present, Test conditions are met, Test is inhibited by other DTC, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request
============================
47. Acoustic system
No DTC found.
============================
52. Front passenger door electronics
No DTC found.
============================
53. Parking brake53. Parking brake
DTCs: 1
----------------------------
3182 [0x0C6E]
Status: Pending fault present, Pending fault present during this driving cycle, Test conditions are met, Validated and stored in non volatile memory, Validated fault present at time of request
============================
56. Head unit (MMI) (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.
============================
62. Rear left door electoronics (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.
============================
72. Rear right door electronics (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.
============================
77. Telephone
No DTC found.
============================
78. Slide Door Right (VW TP2.0)
No DTC found.

Hi no lack of coding will only knacker your new battery in record time but won't prevent the cranking, a lot of the codes are very old according to the dates on the faults I can only suggest that you clear them at some point, the only code of interest is P2015 as if the throttle valve is not reaching its start position that would prevent it starting but not cranking, what diagnostic platform are you using, due to the lack of any relevant codes for cranking failure it could be an immobiliser problem, I think this might be a auto electrician job as they will be able to test continuity of voltage between the key and starter and the immobiliser function.

Steve.

[DJGLW]

Again thanks Steve. Yes the immobiliser is a possibility but would all the ign lights come on?

Is there a way of disarming the immobiliser?

Am using a generic OBDII code reader. I have cleared all the fault codes several times but these keeps coming up.

I must say the lack of info on the net about UK Audi's is disappointing. The non-cranking issues appears very common especially in the USA.

My problem is establishing which relay feeds the solenoid. I really want to put a live feed down the relay to the solenoid to test both the solenoid and starter but am finding too much conflicting info on which relay is the correct one?

[Stevey Y]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:35 PM, DJGLW said:

Again thanks Steve. Yes the immobiliser is a possibility but would all the ign lights come on?

Is there a way of disarming the immobiliser?

Am using a generic OBDII code reader. I have cleared all the fault codes several times but these keeps coming up.

I must say the lack of info on the net about UK Audi's is disappointing. The non-cranking issues appears very common especially in the USA.

My problem is establishing which relay feeds the solenoid. I really want to put a live feed down the relay to the solenoid to test both the solenoid and starter but am finding too much conflicting info on which relay is the correct one?

Hi yes the dash lights will still work the only other thing I can think of would be the pick up on the ignition switch, start from the beginning, did  the car crank ok before you changed the battery and who changed it, you stated that you replaced the switch was it new or second hand, the switches should have a transducer ring near the barrel or around it these are very prone to voltage spikes.

Steve.

[DJGLW]

I had the no crank problem due I thought to a low battery. Charged it overnight still no crank so I checked the fuses at both dash ends. It then started once. The next time I tried it a few hours later it wouldn't start and the battery was <10v. So as I had no other vehicle to go collect a battery, I had Halfords come and fit a new battery. I wrote telling them the battery had to have a BEM number and they would have to recode it to the car. They sent a battery but their fitter wouldn't code it saying it wasn't necessary. When it still wouldn't start he couldn't get out of here fast enough.

I have since tried another key switch to no avail. Do you know where I could get the switch pinouts to try and test it tho it would be difficult given the plug/socket type.

If I can get a proper wiring diagram I can test out all the components but I can't find anything.

Typical VW. Hoard info whilst their dealers aren't interested unless it's a current model. Pity the law doesn't force them to publish all the info they have once their products, our cars, reach say 10 years of age.

[DJGLW]

So I've solved two problems. I can get the car to start but more important I have a method for checking the starter and solenoid in under 20 seconds.

I'm sharing it here but stressing this only applies to my car and variant and you should NOT use this if you don't understand how it works and if you do try it, you do so at your own risk & peril.

Have the car in neutral gear and the handbrake firmly on.

By measuring with a meter I identified which of the four 404 type relays operated the solenoid.

See Pic 1

I then attached a very light gauge wire to the relay leg which fed power to the solenoid. See pic 2.

The other end of the wire I simply touched to the +ve jumper peg under the bonnet as my battery is in the boot and with the ignition on it starts. See video.

BE AWARE IF YOU DO THIS WITH THE CAR IN GEAR, IT WILL START AND DRIVE OFF, WITH THE CAR LIKELY TO KILL OR INJURE YOU THEN GO ON TO COLLIDE WITH SOMETHING OR SOMEONE ELSE.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by DJGLW

[Stevey Y]

1 hour ago, DJGLW said:

So I've solved two problems. I can get the car to start but more important I have a method for checking the starter and solenoid in under 20 seconds.

I'm sharing it here but stressing this only applies to my car and variant and you should NOT use this if you don't understand how it works and if you do try it, you do so at your own risk & peril.

Have the car in neutral gear and the handbrake firmly on.

By measuring with a meter I identified which of the four 404 type relays operated the solenoid.

See Pic 1

I then attached a very light gauge wire to the relay leg which fed power to the solenoid. See pic 2.

The other end of the wire I simply touched to the +ve jumper peg under the bonnet as my battery is in the boot and with the ignition on it starts. See video.

BE AWARE IF YOU DO THIS WITH THE CAR IN GEAR, IT WILL START AND DRIVE OFF, WITH THE CAR LIKELY TO KILL OR INJURE YOU THEN GO ON TO COLLIDE WITH SOMETHING OR SOMEONE ELSE.

 

 

Hi excellent work, this rules out the immobiliser as that would not let you start it whatever you did so that would point to a power supply problem between the switch and the relay, now the tricky bit is chasing the wiring back from the offending relay leg back it is possible that the wire female receiver is corroded at the back of the reception plug dig it out of its holder and have a look, Halfords mobile fitters are trained Monkeys, I was down the garage I use this week and a woman came in with a Q3 with the EML on she had been to Halfords to have a bulb fitted, apparently the fitter had tried to fit it and given up telling her he couldn't do it, the EML was for a MAF problem which won't clear until we looked under the bonnet and plugged it back in, cleared right away which only left her with the problem of no headlight bulb.

Steve.

 

[DJGLW]

Again thanks Steve.

The beauty of what I've unravelled is the non crank problem seemed to be a fairly common fault with Audi's.

From what I read getting at the starter to check it is a right pain and several hours under the car.

My way checks not only the starter but also the solenoid effortlessly. Don't even get dirty hands and definitely proves whether the fault lies there or not.

So there is the key switch which tonight is again flashing up as faulty intermittently, the clutch switch, the ECU and the thing on the battery lead in the boot.

I dismantled my key switch and all 4 microswitches are operating correctly. I really would like to find the pins and how to check the transducer which I assume could be tested with with my ohmmeter before I buy another one?

Then it's got to be the clutch switch. Interestingly my cruise stopped working a while back but my understanding is they are switched separately on the clutch pedal although I cannot see either switch.

I wonder how many of these have been scrapped because of the no crank issue? 

Edited April 2, 2023 by DJGLW

[Stevey Y]

7 minutes ago, DJGLW said:

Again thanks Steve.

The beauty of what I've unravelled is the non crank problem seemed to be a fairly common fault with Audi's.

From what I read getting at the starter to check it is a right pain and several hours under the car.

My way checks not only the stater but also the solenoid effortlessly. Don't even get dirty hands and definitely proves whether the fault lies there or not.

So there is the key switch which tonight is again flashing up as faulty intermittently, the clutch switch, the ECU and the thing on the battery lead in the boot.

I dismantled my key switch and all 4 microswitches are operating correctly. I really would like to find the pins and how to check the transducer which I assume could be tested with with my ohmmeter before I buy another one?

Then it's got to be the clutch switch. Interestingly my cruise stopped working a while back but my understanding is they are switched separately on the clutch pedal although I cannot see either switch.

I wonder how many of these have been scrapped because of the no crank issue? 

Hi good question, with the transducer there is no way of checking as they are solid state, I agree with the clutch master cylinder switch idea as a while ago I had about three on the bounce all failed within a month of fitting they are plastic crap, not sure if yours will be the same as mine but I will look on my parts system and see if its the same with the switch sensor mounted on top of the master cylinder.

Steve.

[Stevey Y]

9 minutes ago, Stevey Y said:

Hi good question, with the transducer there is no way of checking as they are solid state, I agree with the clutch master cylinder switch idea as a while ago I had about three on the bounce all failed within a month of fitting they are plastic crap, not sure if yours will be the same as mine but I will look on my parts system and see if its the same with the switch sensor mounted on top of the master cylinder.

Steve.

Hi had a quick look and it is most likely yours is the one with the sensor mounted on the cylinder if there is no obvious sign of a pedal  switch, they are a bit of a fan to change as you have to remove the scuttle cover and the  the box under the ECU and a ton of connectors to get at it, good video tutorial on YouTube its the same for that years A6.

Steve.

[DJGLW]

Thanks Steve.

There are tons of vids on YT on Audi's but mainly B6/B7. Any clues on which one?

The cable is so tight on the ECU in that box that I'm not keen on removing the box. Is the box bolted in?  The scuttle cover is already off to access the box.

Is it a sensor or is it a switch on the master cylinder and does it feed to another relay? If yes what relay as it would let me check the switch/sensor before ripping the box out.

Btw I'm certain when I stripped the Ign switch I was able to meter out the transducer coil and get a reading in ohms though I never noted it. Pic 1 shows transducer loop in partially stripped ign switch and the two pins to test its continuity. Pic 2 show ign switch part number which is 8KO 909 131 C. I mention this as the C is critical. The replacement I got didn't have the C and wouldn't fit. The difference is circled in red in pic 3 and stops it sliding into the dash frame.

Is the ECU in the scuttle box the main engine start ecu? If it is would I be able to check the clutch switch through the harness connector if I knew the pinout?

Thanks for all your patience. I suspect this thread will be use to others going forward.

[Toretto]

I have do the same like the video but the car only crank without start

[DJGLW]

Are you certain it's getting fuel?

What is the history around the time of the fault?

Have you read the fault codes and have you checked there is +12v at the relay?

Lastly where are you?

Edited November 29, 2023 by DJGLW

[Jorgeb8]

Hola pudiste solucionarlo estoy en el mismo problema que tú mi coche no arranca con la llave 

[DJGLW]

"Hello, could you solve it? I'm in the same problem as you. My car doesn't start with the key"

i'm assuming you mean the engine won't turn over?

if it turns over but won't start it's a completely different problem probably fuel related. 
If it won't turn over, it's likely either:-

1 battery, fuse or earth connection  

2 starter/solenoid

3 ign keyswitch

4 switch on clutch mechanism. 

If you carefully follow my video, you can check all four. If it then turns over it's either 3 or 4 above. 
If it doesn't turn over then it's 1 or 2 above. 
WARNING  MY WIRE BYPASS METHOD WITH TURN THE ENGINE OVER EVEN WITH THE IGNITION OFF  

MAKE CERTAIN ITS IN NEUTRAL!!!!

So please confirm is it not starting or not turning over?

Can you hear any clicks with the clutch pressed when you try to start it with the key?

You are listening for the starter solenoid and also the relay in the video to click. 
Hope this helps.